Sunday, 20 September, 2009

Guantanamo Bay...

Guantanamo Bay... I am sure every person who has even a vague idea about politics knows what it is... It is a detention centre, basically prisoners who are accused of being dangerous terrorists are held there, indefinitely! During Bush presidency and Iraq wars, the tortures these people go through in there had come into the limelight and Bush had been heavily criticised for it. Obama had taken steps to close it down but...
This is a chat between Anurag and me reagrding the issue...
isko pado...

me:wht do u kno about guantanamo bay?
10:40 AManurag: ye kahaan se aaya :P
me: woh chod ans de
10:41 AManurag: okk... I know that it was a center where all the so called criminals were kept and tortured by the american was recently closed by B.O to end all the atrocities there :)
me: wrong...
yahi toh prob hai
10:42 AMeven u tht it got closed
anurag: ??
me: when obama sugned an order to close it... it gt publicized world wide
and when SC turned ovr the ruling... kisi ko kano kaan khabar nahi hui
10:43 AM*signed
anurag: so it's still open
me: xactly
and only 6 detainees hv been released so far
anurag: teko kaise maloom ..tu spy kar rahi hain kya :P ...tune kaheen ye padha hogaa...but woh cheez wrong bhi toh ho sakti hain
10:44 AMme: wikipedia
n i m scourging news articles now
anurag: dekho bhai aisa hain
10:45 AMjab bhi koi kaam kiya jaata by any government official or any reform is implemented..there are bound to be some loopholes in this could be one such loophole ...
me: 100%sahi hai point is..... the formew gt publicized so obv ppl tht oh obama is a grt man and stopped following the news story.. the latter at the most got published in some corner chota sa... so majority don kno about it
10:46 AM*former
i agree he can't go against SC or US Congress... but news mein prominent hona chahiye tha na
10:48 AManurag: well if u ask me honestly I don't agree with the relevance of the news...atleast a decision was made to close it....woh toh kiya naa...abhi kuch ho, naa ho ...woh uske haath me thodi naa hain ...give the guy a break ...kya kya karegaa bechara :D
10:49 AMme: oh shut up u r nt his lawyer, he is a well qualified lawyer anyway, and i m nt pointing fingers at him... i m pointing at US
woh bhi Harvard se
lawyer hai
anurag: hmm..waise any plans to go to U.S...u r so anti ..U.S :P
10:50 AMme: i m anti US politics... as a country US has a lot of things which are more than just admirable
esp the fact that i could prob sit in their country n criticize the govt and i can still do it... coz i have a right to speak my mind
10:51 AM
anurag: lol
me: :P
why r u so pro US anyway?
anurag: yeah u should criticize our govt ..why theirs haan?
10:52 AMme: coz it is US which claims to be championing human rights, lashes out at CHina n Korea... apne girebaan mein jhaak kar dekho
10:53 AMIndia does nt run a Guantanamo and so has a right to say that to other countries
anurag: well tu apne jagah pe sahin hain ...but when I look at the other side of the coin ...ur argument falls short
me: explain the other side of coin to me
10:54 AManurag: well dekh abhi srk ko hee dekhle...u believe it was wrong to interrogate him like that right? ..I read ur comment on fb ??
me: well read the blog also then
usme bhi i hv writeen bout it
anurag: lol...haan maine sirf bo hee padha :P
me: pad woh bhi
10:55 AManurag: well see abhi it's only srk who his getting interrogated like that's others why make such noise abt the same....
10:56 AMme: arrey my prob was nt with SRK getting detained it was with "ppl" normal ppl trying to go about their work, getting detained and better read wht i hv written on blog to get a clearer idea
10:57 AManurag: k wait
me: k
anurag: give ur blog link re...
10:58 AManurag: arre kuch toh prob. hain mere chrome ke saath ...u better say kya likha tha :P
me: In the wake of what happened with SRK, I wanted to write a post but couldn't decide where my commitments lay coz arguments from both the sides sound extremely convincing. Infact, if someone asked me to participate in a debate on it, I might speak for the motion i.e. for the justification of the detaining, but somewhere deep, my heart tries to point out Iraq and its jail incidents, it tries to point out to New York(the movie) and how the innocent too suffer, it points out the sham America pretends to be when it champions the cause of human rights, lecturing other nations about it, when time and again there have been allegations that the US has always always acted in its own political interest and I can't say I have found all of them to be false!!!
10:59 AManurag: hmmm
that's true
me: good... nw explain other side of coin
11:01 AManurag: abbe it's just that the checking and customs and the "rukes" are all in our interest
me: weak argument, as I m sure you also realise :P
anurag: /;D
11:02 AMme: yeh kya smiley hai?
anurag: :D
me: i never disagreed upon that... wy do u think i say both sides are convincing...
it is obv security that favors detenion
11:03 AMwhat opposes it wht i m trying to point to...
anurag: I get it re...
me: good
11:04 AMwhich means u can xpect a post soon... on this... n i m thinking of puttin this conversation
anurag: U.S should not dictate terms is what u saying right
me: yup... or if it wants to... better keep their noses clean
11:05 AManurag: yeah ..with all the swine flu around :D
me: abbey
11:06 AM
anurag: but don't u agree with this akansha that
me: that
11:07 AManurag: U.S is a super power and the world needs a country to u know ..hv a say to all the things ..take decisions to issues like environment and others
me: i agree completely...
having a super power to whom others listen is always gonna be good
11:08 AMbut why does it have to keep organisations that r supposed to be international in nature and for the good of the entire world, in its own pockets
take UN, take World Bank, take IMF
anurag: org's like ?
11:09 AMwell those do good to the world...can't deny that...
me: on US orders...
do u kno... US very conveniently overlooked Pak and Afghan activities
11:10 AMwhen it wanted to remove RUssians frm Afghanistan
it was only after RUssians left and Taliban came into power in Afghanistan that US came to "supposedly" its senses and started banning nuke tests n developments
11:11 AManurag: well u know ...If that being the case...why u think others contries don't protest against this "So called dominating force" do u think ?? ...It's coz they see no wrong in that obv.
11:13 AMme: oh right... they see no wrong... dear.. just coz they don publically speak against US doesn;t mean they support US. Japan, CHina, Korea all hv to be given just one single opportunity to get back at the US... all these are itching to be world powers tho Japan is doing it more thru tech n less thru war
11:14 AMchina tries to create problems between countries n Korea unfortunately is too weak at present being embroiled in its internal wars.. communism n stuff
11:15 AManurag: Well jo bhi ho ....I believe ur argument holds fort....but not a strong one....It's anti U.S completely :P
me: it is supposed to be anti US... bewakoof...
and if this is not strong... give me stronger counter arguments then...
11:16 AM:-w
11:17 AManurag: Well u know ....there so many multi cultural ppl living in the U.S..and plus thr hasn't been a terror attack thr since 9/11 the Afganistan and all plicies seem justifiable
11:19 AMme: multi-cultural... read dreams from my father... and the others r nt w/o discrimination... and more so coz the americans fear getting bangalored
terror attacks... yes I give them credit for it...
11:20 AMbut the price innocents r paying... is it so small...
11:21 AManurag: It's not but U can't deny the fact that the U.S is doing other good things for the humanity ..i.e for Global Warming and other environmental issues...the problem with u is u don't seem to give credit when it's due
*where it's due
11:22 AMme: I don giv credit coz I kno more about inside stories dude
Environmental issues... wht do u kno about Kyoto Protocol?
or carbon trading?
11:23 AMor IPCC?
anurag: errr..nothing
me: read up dear...
and try reading between the lines also
11:24 AManurag: how does one do that :P
me: hmm.. WTO ke rules n regulations pata hai?
anurag: btw any plans of giving gre dear...M.S in EE ??
11:25 AMme: nope.. GRE mere bas ki bat nahi...
hmm... yeh toh pata hoga ki they r against benefit of India
anurag: haan
me: ohk.. now obv yeh explicitly toh likha nahi hai... but u kno that n=by reading between the lines
11:27 AManurag: I bought up the gre that I wanted u to go to the U.S and see how things are ..I hate those kinda ppl who write about things only by7 reading things which could all be baseless...and rumoured
11:28 AMme: hmm... oye chinta mat kar... i'll go to US atleast once in my lifetime
anurag: haha
me: lekin
US jaakar bhi...
mujhko wahan ki politics dikhai nahi dene waali hai
coz politics goes on behind closed dooors
11:29 AMhawa mein lehraati nahi hai
anurag: jaise dupatta lehraata hain :P
11:31 AMme: :P
come to the point
sahi hai ki nahi?
anurag: haan true
11:32 AMme: gud
triumphant look
anurag: that doesn't mean u won this "Debate"
11:33 AMme: hmm.. unless you have more legitimate points to add... I have won!
11:34 AManurag: main pakk gayaa yaar :D :D
me: then I win!
anurag: and I am off
11:35 AMI want to read ur article though understand it more...and then may be we can debate more competitively
me: ohk
cool with me

OK, let me clarify a few things here... I am not anti US and I am not saying this because some people may conclude so from the post...

I have this habit, especially during one-to-one debates and discussions.... I hold one and only one end of the rope very very strongly, and tug and tug and tug... In short, I pretend to beforsomething to the levels of extreme, just to gauge how the other person will react... ye baat kisi ko pata nahi hai vaise... this is the very first time I am accepting it... ;)

But... all facts stated in the conversation are true as known to me, and their sources are scattered all over the net... this conversation took place quite a few days back and hadn't been put up here up to this point, coz I wanted to discuss this with some more people one-to-one, but I never got around to doing it...

But over the days, I have never stopped following the issue, and there was a story in the Indian Express about a guy who had been taken in there when he was 12 or 14 and he had come out at something like 20... He was released after it was established that he was not-guilty... Imagine... the numbers that are still INSIDE... getting tortured for crimes they did not commit... getting punishments for wrongs they did not do... Obama promised he would ensure these got closed byFeb 2010... and so far steps have been taken for release of only a handful and there are around 200 people in there... And that is not all, there have been allegations that a second Guantanamo is coming up in Afghanistan... the only thing different about it is... its name... that is IT!!!

I would like opinions from others... as to what you all think about the issue...

If someone is further interested in the issue, all you have to do is go and type Guantanamo Bay in Google and there's a plethora of info available... check out Wiki as well...


Akansha Agrawal said...

Isko edit karna mere bas ki baat nahi hai... whenever you copy and paste chats, blogger misbehaves... so I apologize for typos here...

2nd para: This is a chat between Anurag and me regarding the issue... isko pado...

5th para from last: In short, I pretend to be for something to the levels of extreme...

Sorry... :(

aZoed said...

1. It's unethical to paste chats if both parties agree 'coz the world over bloggers spend hours writin' a post and your making one outta a chat is like - damn easy! :P

2. yaar dhang se edit karna! badi mushkil ho rhi hai padhne mein :| The Times of India has a better font than this.

3. Anurag's pro US 'coz he just acquired an iPod nano which came from - you guessed it right! The US :P

4. There are two kinds of people in the world optimists and pessimists - and more often than not their environment shapes their opinons. Obama is an optimist from the outset [remember - "Yes we can"] and the fact that he's been travelling Air Force One since January to here there and everywhere, makes him all the more so.

The judicial body that revoked his order regarding Guantanmo obviously don't have an outlook that of Obabma's and their seeing the world outta biased US News channels doesn't really help. In a way, you can't really blame them too, 'coz anyone fed on the clippings of (/11 aired over and over won't dare release people likely to have the slightest chance of performing an encore.

And that's one thing I admire the US for... they give people all the freedom of expression, but then they know when to draw the line.

Picture this in India... no you just can't!

Remember what happened when Mamta Bannerjee decided to forego the unofficial train halts that had been stamped by Lalu? She had to make them official stations and sanction money for them in the official budget :P

Why I brought in Mamta Bannerjee? I just thought another Bengali 'd add spice to the curry that the post is. ;)

As for SRK - he's the guy from circus - remember? A gimmick of the best class! The lesser said the better.

You shouldn't be sobbin' around if you are stopped once in a blue moon by people who are out there to ensure that the flight lands on the runway at the airport and not some random skyscrapper.

And a word for Anurag now - dude they don't spare pro US guys too :P

Anurag said...

lol..u put this convo here..I never expected u wd but anyway... :P

Just to clarify this particular line
"..I hate those kinda ppl who write about things only by reading things which could all be baseless...and rumoured" .....

Was actually sarcastic from me :D

But coming to the point...all I wanna say again is...that if these things are happenening it should be checked by the "concerned authority" and dealt with..I again though want to reiterate here ki the intension of the man(to close Guatanamo) can't be questioned...can it..but yes if the things aren't happening then there is a right to raise a voice ..I would say ..let the republicans take it up...Spoken like a true republican here :D..jokes apart ..yes the point is relevant :)

aZoed said...

Gosh! was I trying my hand at rebuttaling there? Whatever! i love d it :P

Akansha Agrawal said...

1.)Dude I spent hours chatting... and making a post OUT of it... :|
2.)I have done my best under the circumstances... I have already stated that blogger misbehaves horribly when you copy paste chats.:|
3.)not worth answering
4.)Obama is a politician, period...

*eyes rolling at rest of comment* :P

rebuttaling??? *shakes her head*

Akansha Agrawal said...

It doesn't sound sarcastic na... :|

Who's supposed to be the Republican here???Coz I am def not one... hell, it doesn't even matter, I am an Indian and wrt India Democrats and Republicans don't exist, only politicians do... :P

Oh, thank you... finally kahin to agree kiya... :)

ღ ღ ღ ♥ nessa ♥ღ ღ ღ said...

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Mads said...

okay i finally got around reading this post....
and well, im anti US and im proud of it. Whatever actions they take, in the name of them being a super power country and eradicating terrorism from the world and crap, it's all for their political motives.

i didnt know about the second Guantanamo coming up in Afghanistan..shocking...

post was was the movie New york coming back to me somehow....

Akansha Agrawal said...

Sabse pehle >:D< >:D< >:D< itnaaa lamba post padne ke liye... :D

Chalo somebody agrees with me... \:D/

Arrey it is a again a base where they're holding prisoners the same way... Haan even I was kinda thinking about New York while writing it... :-s

Assman said...

Regarding US's role in the Indo-Pak and Sino-India scene, here is something from a recent Arun Shourie article -
• Every country, including the US, will act in its own national interest.
• It will act in its own national interest as that interest is perceived by a handful.
• It will act in its own national interest as that interest is perceived by a handful at that moment.

Today Saddam Hussein is good as a counter to Iran, and so he must be financed, encouraged, armed; tomorrow he is the Devil. Today the Taliban are the phalanx of Freedom against the Soviet Union, and so they must be financed, trained, fired up, organized, armed; tomorrow they are the soldiers of the Devil, and so must be exterminated."

The article in indian express is an great read, although very long.

Americans are as much of politicians as any other nations, the potent strength that they posses makes any "failing" on their part very costly for the world. I believe that most of the detained were detained because of serious concerns. One would have to make sure of the particular people who were released as being innocent because some people were released as innocent because the legal system does not permit "forced" confessions and also because if it surfaces that a certain inmate has been tortured then his confessions are considered forced.
Also another side we should not fail to see, in the interest of fairness, is that a number of American and British people espoused the cause of the inmates at Gitmo and took the struggle to streets and also they defended the cases of those who were detained. US has a number of people who stand for human rights and while we opine about US, we should not discount their contribution.
Undoubtedly the excesses of Gitmo are a horror to any peace loving society, it is surprising that the media did not pick the story up.
Regarding US having UN and WB and IMF etc. in its pocket is again not a correct assessment. US is the largest contributor to UN, both monetarily and in terms of ideology. The UN charter of freedom of speech is a great article for the world to implement and we have US to thank for that. Notwithstanding the large contributions of US to UN, WB, IMF, etc. these organisations are not political in nature and have not acted in such capacity. There are no instances to state that these organisations have acted impartially at all.
I could find no blog about srk being "detained" pl link it.

Akansha Agrawal said...

@Assman yeah I have read these long winding articles by Arun Shourie in Indian Express...

Yeah I agree there had to be a solid reason to arrest anybody, but you can't argue with the fact that there are glitches... they can goof up too...

Freedom of expression... yes I love US for that... there are loads and loads of people who do fight for human rights... and that is why I said I am not anti US, I am simply anti US politics...

About the media, it was probably kept under the wraps for a long long time, the govt has a right to withhold information that can harm the security of the country and this was definitely one of those...

Of course there are instances to prove it... may not be pro US but are def not in favour of India, the policies I mean.. the policies of WTO have harmed Indian trade... I agree these organisations are essential but I would prefer to see them shift base to some other neutral ground, being in US, I suppose allegations are all the more bound to rise...

Again as I stated, I only pretend to be on the extremes, the rational and practical ME states that the solution will have to be the middle path... :)

Thousif Raza said...

maybe the being of the jail is bad, but that one jail has raised many fears among the terrorists too, so its a 2 way hole where one takes the guilty and another takes the non guilty

its the same with the prisons of all the country akansha, its just that america wanted to hype it by showing it, where as other countries prisons dont show it,

talk to some inmate in an indian prison and you will know, what torture then go through, its sometimes more than those in guantanamo,

there its just inmates getting tortured here along with inmates thier whole family too gets tortured so very much that most of them commit suicides....

take care and keep writing.............

Assman said...

@AA, I think WTO doha discussions are a very large topic for discussion. I have a feeling that India is very scared of foreign competition in some sectors and thats why the talks are not working out.
However the funda is that like any responsible funding organisation, they place some conditions and monitoring systems to make sure that the money is being used in a "proper" manner. So this constitutes some prescriptions that we normally accept. Some times these are not acceptable to us and we negotiate. The funding countries also impose some conditions on their funding. These are not specifically aimed at some country and are normally general. Never are they directed towards a foreign policy of a country. So I do not agree that due to US presence in WTO/IMF the funding is serving their purposes. There have never been allegations to that effect either, at least none that can be considered seriously.

Abhinav said...

Well, what I can say is that US has got smarter brains than the rest of the world.. smarter in the sense that they can persuade rest of the world to believe that they are doing right..

there are no guatama-wataver-bay in India but our normal jails are quite comparable!

(baaki we can discuss on gtalk and you can make another post out of our chat so thats it...!)

and I dont care whether Obama is gud or bad.. i dnt care abt him.. for me he is equivalent to Nepal's PM if any!

Akshay said...

Diplomatic policies are rarely shaped by moralistic considerations. The US merely want to prevent another terrorist attack of the magnitude of 9/11.

And if a few innocent peoples' lives are destroyed in the process, too bad for them.

Guantanamo is the only high-profile prison of this kind. It is alleged there are several such secret prisons all over the world.

I have this feeling all these draconian policies the US frames to supposedly protect its citizens is one day going to undermine the very existence of the US itself.

I mean, as a US anti-terrorism officer, I have the right to kill pretty much anyone under the pretext of ensuring national security. How scary is that?

Such sweeping powers can easily be misused. All I need to do is to plant a few weapons in the house of anyone who annoys me and lock him in Guantanamo forever.

Iraq war. They murdered 3 million of the people they were claiming to "save".

I'm neither pro nor anti-US. I simply couldn't care less about them. But I can't say I'm fond of them.
US society sure has several wonderful aspects, but the less pleasant aspects are rarely highlighted. They prefer mocking us about our "caste-system" and "poor" human rights protection record. Many Americans I've met(in person or online) never hesitate to shove their holier-than-thou nationalistic bullshit down our throats. Many Americans are arrogant,racist and insular.

IMO, A lot of the US cautiousness towards India has its roots in the Cold War. India, though non-aligned, always tended to gravitate towards the USSR. We're in a way, paying the price for backing the wrong player.

The US is just trying to perpetuate its hegemony for as long as it can, either by hook or by crook.

Interestingly, for all the noise the US makes about protecting the "civilized world" (as if the rest of the people are uncivilized louts!), they've never taken any major action against the North Koreans. North Korea is probably as bad a tyranny as Iraq under Saddam was. Yet, we don't see them bombing them anytime soon. I think it's because the Koreans can hit back. They're nuclear armed, and any hanky-panky by the Americans could mean the nuclear destruction of the Hawaii and the entire US West Coast. So they're afraid.

But the US now also recognizes China as the next major power and hence is cosying up to them. The Chinese, like us Indians, are imperfect environmentalists & human rights violators too. Then why is only India under scrutiny all the time?

This is another interesting article,